July 12th, 2025
posted by [syndicated profile] lolcats_feed at 09:00am on 12/07/2025
posted by [syndicated profile] languagelog_feed at 04:40pm on 12/07/2025

Posted by Mark Liberman

In "AI win of the week" I explored the inter-personal dimensions of Rousseau's 1754 contention that "there is neither rhythm nor melody in French music, because the language is not capable of them". In the comments, AntC objected that "But, but. Rousseau wrote an opera, in French, to his own Libretto. audio + full score available on Youtube".

For now, I have only two comments on this. First, trolls are often happy to abandon consistency in the service of pwning their audience And second, the 1754 edition of Rousseau's screed, published two years after the debut of his opera, goes into considerable detail about how he painfully transferred the musicality of Italian prosody to the composition and performance of a work with French lyrics.

But rather than diving further into Rousseau's argument about the relative musicality of different languages' prosody, the point of today's post is to note its resonance with another mid-18th century prosodic dispute, namely Joshua Steele's refutation of James Burnett's claim that English prosody gives its syllables "nothing better than the music of a drum, in which we perceive no difference except that of louder or softer, according as the instrument is more or less forcibly struck".

My connection with this argument began in 1973, when I was trying to learn something about English intonation. The (very small) relevant section of the stacks in MIT's library happened to have (a facsimile edition of) Steele's 1775 work, An Essay Towards Establishing the Melody and Measure of Speech to be Expressed and Perpetuated by Peculiar Symbols. I read it carefully and learned a lot.

One of the first things I learned was Steele's motivation for the enterprise. His description starts this way:

[M]y learned and honoured friend Sir John Pringle, President of the Royal Society, desired me to give him, in writing, my opinion on the musical part of a very curious and ingenious work lately published at Edinburgh, on The Origin and Progress of Language, which I should find principally in part II. book ii, chap. 4. and 5. wherein several propositions, denying that our language has either the melody of modulation, or the rhythmus of quantity, gave occasion to the following systematic attempt to prove the contrary.

At that point I paid no further attention to Monboddo's  "very curious and ingenious work", partly because I was convinced by Steele's arguments against it, and partly because the library didn't have a copy of (any of the six volumes) of  the work in question.  But digital facsimiles are now easy to come by, and so I've taken a look at the stuff that led Pringle to question Steele, and led Steele to write his essay.

The author was James Burnett, Lord Monboddo (see Language Hat's post on the interpretation of the name), and the six volumes of The Origin and Progress of Language were published between 1774 and 1792. Volume II was part of the initial 1774 publication,  giving Steele only a year to prepare and publish his response a year later.

The relevant pages of Monboddo's work are here, if you really want to slog through them. The critical passage comes at the end:

But what do we mean then when we speak so much of accent in English, and dispute whether a word is right or wrong accented? My answer is, That we have, no doubt, accents in English, and syllabical accents too: but they are of a quite different kind from the antient accents ; for there is no change of the tone in them; but the voice is only raised more, so as to be louder upon one syllable than another. Our accents therefore fall under the first member of the division of sound, which I made in the beginning of this chapter, namely, the distinction of louder, and softer, or lower.

That there is truly no other difference, is a matter of fact, that must be determined by musicians. Now I appeal to them, whether they can perceive any difference of tone betwixt the accented and unaccented syllables of any word; and if there be none, then is the music of our language in this respect nothing better than the music of a drum, in which we perceive no difference except that of louder or softer, according as the instrument is more or less forcibly struck.

Of course Monboddo is also wrong that drum sounds can differ only in loudness and not in frequency content — watch and listen here for a refutation, or here for another (and more linguistically relevant) one.

But in fairness to Lord Monboddo, his "English accents are like drum beats" claim is not quite so idiotically tone-deaf as it seems, since he makes two other claims earlier that fuzzify it somewhat. One is the idea that English pitch changes exist, but only as "the tones of passion or sentiment":

As to accents in English, Mr Foster, from a partiality, very excusable, to his country, and its language, would fain persuade us, that in English there are accents such as in Greek and Latin. But to me it is evident that there are none such; by which I mean that we have no accents upon syllables, which are musical tones, differing in acuteness or gravity. For though, no doubt, there are changes of voice in our speaking from acute to grave, and vice versa, of which a musician could mark the intervals, these changes are not upon syllables, but upon words or sentences. And they are the tones of passion or sentiment, which, as I observed, are to be distinguished from the accents we are speaking of.

And he adds

[T]here is another difference betwixt our accents and the antient, that ours neither are, nor can, by their nature, be subjected to any rule ; whereas the antient, as we have seen, are governed by rules, and make part of their grammatical art.

Anyhow, Steele took it on himself not only to show that English had "melody and measure", but also to provide "peculiar symbols" for expressing it. The pages where he introduces his notation are here.  His instrumental analysis method — using a bass viol — is better than any other one that would be available for the following couple of hundred years:

Along with some other notational inventions, the result is transcriptions like this:

And his conclusions:

1st, That the sound or melody of speecb is not monotonous, or confined like the found of a drum, to exhibit no other changes than those of loud or soft.

2dly, That the changes of voice from acute to grave, and vice versa, do not proceed by pointed degrees coinciding with
the divisions of the chromatico-diatonic scale; but by gradations that seem infinitely smaller (which we call slides); and though altogether of a great extent, are yet too rapid (for inexperienced ears) to be distinctly sub-divided; consequently they must be submitted to some other genus of music than either the diatonic or chromatic.

3dly, That these changes are made, not only upon words and upon sentences, but upon syllables and monosyllables. Also,

4thly, and lastly, That in our changes on syllables or monofyllables, the voice slides, at least, through as great an extent as the Greeks allowed to their accents; that is, through a fifth, more or less.

Not having access to a bass viol, I followed Steele's example using a computer program for a PDP-9, allowing figures like this one from my 1975 dissertation:

Though for presentational purposes, Ivan Sag used a kazoo in presentations like this one:

 

james_davis_nicoll: (Default)

Huh

posted by [personal profile] james_davis_nicoll at 12:02pm on 12/07/2025
This is probably in no way significant, but it just occurred to me to check to see where WorldCon was the years I was nominated:

2010: Melbourne, Australia
2011: Reno, USA
2019: Dublin, Ireland
2020: Wellington, New Zealand
2024: Glasgow, Scotland

(I was nowhere near the ballot in 2009, Montreal)

At a guess, those are years where vote totals were a bit lower?

Read more... )
spiralsheep: Sheep wearing an eyepatch (Default)
The real Salt Path (link to The Observer): how a blockbuster book and film were spun from lies, deceit and desperation.

The Salt Path-ological liar, The Wild Lies, and Landlies )

Most importantly, to me, disabled people suffer collateral damage from both aspects of her fraud: firstly by being told they could do x or y if only they had as much willpower as Walker's fictional character with CBS/CBD, then secondly from the assumption that many disabled people are frauds like Walker. I'm betting she'll continue to profit from her crimes while her victims, intended and indirect, suffer for her choices. (I also feel sympathy for the Walker children and hope they avoid being dragged into this.)
moonhare: farmer bunny (gardening)
posted by [personal profile] moonhare at 12:06pm on 12/07/2025 under
The garden is doing well this year (mostly). We picked a couple of green peppers last week, and yesterday we got a cucumber!

Main garden
Pics! )
Mood:: 'happy' happy
skygiants: the aunts from Pushing Daisies reading and sipping wine on a couch (wine and books)
posted by [personal profile] skygiants at 11:29am on 12/07/2025 under ,
lest you think that having returned The Pushcart War to its rightful owner I went away with my bookshelves lighter! I did NOT, as she pushed 84, Charing Cross Road into my hands at the airport as I was leaving again with strict instructions to read it ASAP.

This is another one that's been on my list for years -- specifically, since I read Between Silk and Cyanide, as cryptography wunderkind Leo Marks chronicling the desperate heroism and impossible failures of the SOE is of course the son of the owner of Marks & Co., the bookstore featuring in 84, Charing Cross Road, because the whole of England contains approximately fifteen people tops.

84, Charing Cross Road collects the correspondence between jobbing writer Helene Hanff -- who started ordering various idiosyncratic books at Marks & Co. in 1949 -- and the various bookstore employees, primarily but not exclusively chief buyer Frank Doel. Not only does Hanff has strong and funny opinions about the books she wants to read and the editions she's being sent, she also spends much of the late forties and early fifties expressing her appreciation by sending parcels of rationed items to the store employees. A friendship develops, and the store employees enthusiastically invite Hanff to visit them in England, but there always seems to be something that comes up to prevent it. Hanff gets and loses jobs, and some of the staff move on. Rationing ends, and Hanff doesn't send so many parcels, but keeps buying books. Twenty years go by like this.

Since 84, Charing Cross Road was a bestseller in 1970 and subsequently multiply adapted to stage and screen, and Between Silk and Cyanide did not receive publication permission until 1998, I think most people familiar with these two books have read them in the reverse order that I did. I think it did make sort of a difference to feel the shadow of Between Silk and Cyanide hanging over this charming correspondence -- not for the worse, as an experience, just certain elements emphasized. Something about the strength and fragility of a letter or a telegram as a thread to connect people, and how much of a story it does and doesn't tell.

As a sidenote, in looking up specific publication dates I have also learned by way of Wikipedia that there is apparently a Chinese romcom about two people who both independently read 84, Charing Cross Road, decide that the book has ruined their lives for reasons that are obscure to me in the Wikipedia summary, write angry letters to the address 84 Charing Cross Road, and then get matchmade by the man who lives there now. Extremely funny and I kind of do want to watch it.
redbird: closeup of me drinking tea, in a friend's kitchen (Default)
posted by [personal profile] redbird at 11:42am on 12/07/2025 under
Cattitude, Adrian, and I are going to be in London for a week, starting Monday July 14th. This trip is partly so my brother and I can sort out my mother's things, including photos and papers, but we should have some free time to see people and/or do tourist things.

We'd like to get together with people. I realize this is somewhat last-minute as well as vague, since we don't know how much time we'll have available.

I have visited London several times, but that trip to see my mother in April was Adrian's first visit to England; Cattitude was three with me for a week in 2001.

We mask indoors, but it's July, so we're hoping for restaurants with outdoor seating.
oursin: Brush the Wandering Hedgehog by the fire (Default)
posted by [personal profile] oursin at 04:12pm on 12/07/2025 under , , , , , , , , , ,

Walkouts, feuds and broken friendships: when book clubs go bad. I don't think I've ever been in a book club of this kind. Many years ago at My Place Of Work there used to be an informal monthly reading group which would discuss some work of relevance to the academic mission of the institution, very broadly defined, and that was quite congenial, and I am currently in an online group read-through and discussion of A Dance to the Music of Time, but both these have rather more focus perhaps? certainly I do not perceive that they have people turning up without having reading the actual books....

Mind you, I am given the ick, and this is I will concede My Garbage, by those Reading Group Suggestions that some books have at the end, or that were flashed up during an online book group discussion of a book in which I was interested.

Going to book groups without Doing The Reading perhaps goes under the heading of Faking It, which has been in the news a lot lately (I assume everybody has heard about The Salt Roads thing): and here are a couple of furthe instances:

(This one is rather beautifully recursive) What if every artwork you’ve ever seen is a fake?:

Many years ago, I met a man in a pub in Bloomsbury who said he worked at the British Museum. He told me that every single item on display in the museum was a replica, and that all the original artefacts were locked away in storage for preservation.
....
Later, Googling, I discovered that none of what the man had told me was true. The artefacts in the British Museum are original, unless otherwise explicitly stated. It was the man who claimed to work there who was a fake.

This one is more complex, and about masquerade and fantasy as much as 'hoax' perhaps: The schoolteacher who spawned a Highland literary hoax

This is not so much about fakery but about areas of doubt: We still do not understand family resemblance which suggests that GENES are by no means the whole story.

andrewducker: (Default)
posted by [personal profile] andrewducker at 11:30am on 12/07/2025 under ,


Off on an awfully big adventure
Original is here on Pixelfed.scot.

purplecat: Drawing of the Seventh Doctor (Who:Seven)

Cover of Doctor the Matrix by Robert Perry & Mike Tucker.  Sylvester McCoy surrounded by four tardises.
posted by [syndicated profile] lolcats_feed at 07:00am on 12/07/2025
posted by [syndicated profile] lolcats_feed at 06:00am on 12/07/2025
conuly: (Default)
Well... if you're interested in reading a book about how living in an over-privileged Connecticut town is terrible and nobody should ever do it (especially if that's going to intersect badly with their terrible childhood) then this is a book you'll like. I preferred Dreadful - the realism : magic ratio in this book leaned a little too realistic, also, I just do not believe that the only school choices are a. fancy schools for wealthy overachievers that have massively high standards and high stakes testing b. xenophobic schools with very low standards and c. homeschooling. Even if there are no public school options there still have to be artsy fartsy schools for wealthy people who know that their kids cannot do the pressure cooker thing starting in kindy.
badfalcon: (Shiny!!!)

[community profile] sunshine_revival Challenge #3 - Snack Shack

posted by [personal profile] badfalcon at 07:46pm on 10/07/2025 under , , ,
Challenge #3
Journaling prompt: What are your favourite summer-associated foods?

Strawberries and cream, obviously. Is it even summer if you haven’t eaten strawberries until your fingers are stained red and you feel a little too full but still somehow tempted to go back for just one more? Ideally they’re a little overripe and still warm from the sun, and the cream is cold and just barely sweetened. That’s the classic.

No photo description available.But my favourite summer foods aren’t just about flavour - they’re rooted in memory, tangled up with the smell of grass and sunblock, the buzz of bees, the distant whine of a hosepipe being uncoiled.

When I was a kid, my dad had a huge garden - and not just that, he also had an allotment, so we were always growing something. It felt like magic, honestly, how much came out of the ground every year. Apples, pears, plums, raspberries, strawberries, gooseberries, loganberries, rhubarb. I think at one point we even had blackcurrants and redcurrants, though I might be imagining that part. The raspberries were my favourite - I’d eat them straight off the plant, warmed by the sun, until I made myself absolutely sick. (Still worth it. Every time.)

We had so much fruit that my childhood summers were full of jam-making and crumbles and endless bowls of stewed fruit with custard. We'd freeze some too - bags and bags of berries packed away for winter, though somehow the frozen ones never quite tasted the same.

And then there were the vegetables. Potatoes, lettuce, tomatoes, cucumber, carrots, cabbage, marrow. I loved the peas most of all - so sweet and crisp, straight from the pod. But I wasn’t allowed to help with the pea harvest anymore after a certain age. There was an incident involving a suspiciously empty bucket and one very full stomach. (Apparently, you can’t be trusted when you come back with more pod than pea. Who knew?)

There’s something about food you’ve watched grow that tastes different - more alive, maybe, more rooted. Summer still tastes like that for me: the green snap of a fresh pod, fruit sticky on your hands, the scent of crushed tomato leaves, and the way the air smells when it’s hot and full of bees and pollen and everything’s growing. Strawberries and cream are just the tip of the memory.
 

Mood:: 'nostalgic' nostalgic
chickenfeet: (spear)
dewline: A fake starmap of the fictional Kitchissippi Sector (Sector)
Working on multiple maps of the same region of #StarTrek 's version of our galaxy is fun. It's also research-intensive and time-consuming, especially where keeping the various maps consistent with each other is concerned.

From last night's progress to such ends in support of several Tranquility Press fanfic projects...

Harmonizing the Triangle Region - 11 July 2025
Mood:: 'busy' busy
james_davis_nicoll: (Default)


Four books new to me.Two are SF, one is fantasy, one is a mix of both. I don't see anything unambiguously labelled as series works.

Books Received, July 5 — July 11

Poll #33350 Books Received, July 5 — July 11
Open to: Registered Users, detailed results viewable to: All, participants: 18


Which of these look interesting?

View Answers

Secrets, Spells, and Chocolate by Marisa Churchill (December 2025)
5 (27.8%)

Spread Me by Sarah Gailey (September 2025)
8 (44.4%)

The Forest on the Edge of Time by Jasmin Kirkbride (February 2026)
8 (44.4%)

The Universe Box by Michael Swanwick (February 2026)
7 (38.9%)

Some other option (see comments)
1 (5.6%)

Cats!
15 (83.3%)

andrewducker: (Default)

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